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Originally from: jim wies Originally dated: Wed, 05 Nov 97 01:23:53 -0500
Several questions in one here. See some comments of one who has finally
found the pattern for apostolic ministry, for the 27th time. PS, I'm using the male gender in the following for simplicity but personally
believe it applies to male AND female ministers in the offices discussed.
PPS. (Hope that doesn't create a thread about the place of women in ministry
..)
-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Originally from: janandjohn@juno.com (John P L'Ecuyer)
John wrote...
<<<My question is this: What is the biblical relationship between the
apostle and if/how he or she moves in the prophetic to function as an
apostle? I see a blurred line between the prophet and the apostle because it
seems as if they both rely on revelatory information from the Lord for the
benefit of the body.> > >
One thing I have learned (the hard way) is that I used to have rigid and
strongly defined descriptions of "the apostle" and "the prophet" when I used
to sit in my study and speculate. Then I got out into the harvest field and
found out there are many blends and overlaps in the definitions of these
callings. Paul told Timothy for instance, who was pastoring as an apostle,
to do the work of an evangelist. humm.
Also, if each of the 5-fold ministries are doing their equipping
responsibility, they are training each member into their particular grace
gifting; i.e. an Eph. 4:11 evangelist should be equipping the church (i.e.
every member) to be evangelistic. The same follows with the prophet -
activating the propheticness of each member, etc. Note: not all are prophets,
true... but... each should have some propheticness about them if they are
to be Christ-like. Therefore, to be a full orbed Christian, we need
influence and equipping from all 5 of the offices.
So, if this is true, every leader should have some of each in them but
will obviously has a strong suite in their particular 5-fold ministry
calling. It would be wrong for me, for instance, to say "Well I'm a prophet,
therefore I can't/ shouldn't/ don't need to be evangelistic."
So what happens is, there are prophetically gifted apostles,
apostolically oriented prophets, pastorally oriented apostles, evangelistic
pastors, prophetic teachers, teaching prophets, etc etc, etc. So then, the
prophet who has had exposure to the apostle's influence will have a
"builder" burden; the evangelist who has been open to the pastors burden
will care about follow-up with the fish he caught., etc.
There is a unique relationship and placement, however, between the
apostle and prophet. The church has the interesting description of being
build upon the foundation of apostles and prophets together as the
foundation. (Eph.2:20) A church without both foundational influences will be
crippled and not all God intends for it to be. In fact, what we've seen most
often instead, is the church build upon the work of an evangelist, a pastor,
or even a teaching ministry, but when we see the final version it will be
something much more glorious.
Now I'm going to venture into experiencial hypothesis a bit more. It
seems that the apostle is characterized by signs & power gifts while the
prophet more often functions in the revelatory gifts. (obviously not a hard
and fast rule) The prophet receives supernatural revelation, the apostle -
supernatural wisdom. The prophet "sees" what and when to build, the apostle
knows how to build it. The apostle left alone will build wonderful but
sterile structures; the prophet left alone will have everyone so envisioned
and motivated that they burn out before they can build anything that has
permanance to it; or else, in his zeal for the pure & perfected church, will
continue to pull down and rip apart anything that is less.
It is obvious that God knew just what kind of tension and balance was
needed in the building of the church, and told us that apostles and prophets
TOGETHER form the foundation for His church. When apostles and prophets find
the grace to embrace each others distinctives and work together, you have a
wonderful foundation upon which something of worth to the Kingdom of God can
be built - with Jesus, of course, the Cornerstone.
As to the relationship between the apostle and prophet, (another theory
here - so don't throw rotten apples) I think that the principle of
subjectivity being submitted to objectivity applies. The principle goes like
this, the subjectivity of the Spirit is submitted to the objectivity of the
Word; the subjectivity of the female (in marriage) is submitted to the
objectivity of the male; the subjectivity of the prophetic is submitted to
the objectivity of the apostolic. (Please,, I'm assuming that you know that
I know there are exceptions - as any marriage counselor worth his salt
would have to admit).
Apostolic team ministry models in the New Testament, for instance,
show Paul leading the team. (For those who have problems with one person
being the "head", all I can tell you is that anything with two heads is a
monster.)
further wrote...
<<<Is there a line that is crossed where this prophetic information is
used in an apostolic way for the benefit of the body?>>>
Yes ideally, the apostle receives revelation from the prophet and knows what
to do with it for the furtherance of the Kingdom. That is why the apostle
needs to recognize the gift that the prophet is to him and the work. I also
think God deliberately will not let any one of us get everything we need
directly from Him so we will learn inter-dependence.
<<<If so, could a person who is not called to be an apostle be used
"apostolically", just as a person who may not be called to be a prophet can
be used "prophetically"? >>>
Yes I think, as stated above, every believer ought to be apostolic,
prophetic, evangelistic and pastoral just because they are matured
Christians. Doesn't mean they occupy the office.
<<<Is there an apostolic-school list I can direct this to so I don't
waste anyone's time here?!?!?!?>>>
Don't know of such, but a few books I would recommend are:
"The Gift of Apostle" by Dr. David Canistraci
"Apostles - Prophets and the Coming Moves of God" by Dr. Bill Hamon
Sorry for the length of this post, for all you who persevered to the end..
this topic just hit one of my buttons. <grin>
Jim Wies
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